It has been a month and a half since the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) formed the government with a strong number of seats in the House of Representatives. The government's rapid pace is demonstrated by actions such as bringing ordinances, abolishing the employee trade union, removing the student organization from the university, using bulldozers in squatter settlements, and revoking appointments made during the previous government. While some of the decisions taken by the government are being praised, there have been protests on the streets against some of the decisions. In this context, Minister Pratibha Rawal, who is in charge of the Ministry of Federal Affairs and General Administration and the Ministry of Land Management, Cooperatives and Poverty Alleviation, spoke to Rajesh Mishra and Jaisingh Mahara for Kantipur: It has been 6 weeks since the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) government was formed. In this short period, it seems that the government has taken action in many directions at once. While some are calling the government's working style good, some have also raised questions. What do you say?

The majority we have received, the hope we have in the people, therefore our 'intervention' is needed in many aspects. Because everywhere there is chaos and deterioration. There are many places to improve. That is why it may seem like we have touched many places. But if all places are not cleaned up at once, the work cannot progress as we thought. There is no place without partyization, be it bureaucracy or students. There is no place without politics. That is why 'massive intervention' was necessary. The government has moved forward accordingly. The 'mandate' we have received is also in accordance with that.

You also have to come from a political party. Why do you keep saying that there should be no organization and partyization?

We are clear on partyization. There was no partyization among employees. We have now removed the existing system of trade unions. What was the situation among the employees when that arrangement was in place? Employees did not go to the assigned place, they refused outright. Whose patronage are they doing that? Who is trusting them? It is important to know. We are clear on one issue, what is politics and to what extent? We are clear that politics should not be done on all issues, from public services.

From the day the government was formed, hasn't it tried to create fear in everyone from the opposition party to the employees by taking steps like arresting opposition party leaders, arresting businessmen, and dissolving the employees' trade union?

It is not keeping them in fear. The government has done what it should have done.
The government has intervened in squatter settlements, universities or student organizations, employee trade unions, etc. at once. This seems to have instilled fear in all bodies. Fear has increased among the public, employees, and the opposition, hasn't it?

The people are not afraid . The people who should be afraid are afraid . The people are happy . We did this for the people . It is for their benefit .
The new party should have understood this system when it was leading the government for the first time . The bureaucracy, which is considered a permanent government, should have understood you too . Is it a bit hasty in that sense ?

I don't see any 'objection' to taking time to understand them . Not at all . If that had happened, there would have been opposition within . There is no way that they don't like the work we are doing . As you can see, now the entire bureaucracy is cooperating . There is no situation of non-cooperation . This refutes the point you made .
You suddenly evacuated the squatters from their places of residence . What is the management's preparation now ?

  We are clear on the management side . Screening work is underway . From that, a record of the squatters will be prepared . Then there is homework on how to manage them . First, the screening work should be completed, then we will move on to the next part .
Slum dwellers' settlements were demolished  in Kathmandu . There is a large number of squatters outside Kathmandu as well . They are scared . What will happen there ?

A lot of confusion was also spread against the government, saying that now it is time to pick them up . The local level and the province are also doing it themselves . The federal government has no role in that . First, we have a vision on management . Only when we can manage, where to remove, we remove . The first priority is identification and management . Then, finally, there are other things we have to do . Now, there is no Land Commission . Then, a new structure has been conceived . The new structure should not be so complicated and a long process  . The homework to form such a committee is being done  . Now that too will be known 
Not like that . Not that it is convenient . It should be made for the people . It should be made convenient for the people directly concerned . The commission did not do that . That is why a committee is being formed to be convenient for the stakeholders . And, we are doing homework on the structure of that committee and how it works . We cannot tell everything right now . However, information on this matter will be available next week .

Will the committee that the government is going to form to solve the land problem be formed by political appointments like before, or will it be formed from within the government structure ?
There will be no leaders . From employees and, if necessary, experts can be involved . Now, the work from land revenue to surveying will be done by employees.  But now there will be no leaders at the place of solution .

Sukum residents in Kathmandu have been taken from their places of residence and kept in shelters . How long will they get their own homes ?
Their proper arrangements are being made . Screening has taken time . It will not take much time now . A structure is also being built . It will manage them . Not only here . We will move forward to solve the problems of squatters across the country . 

And, the campaign to remove squatters from government land has seen demonstrations and agitations against the government in various parts of the country . Doesn't this embarrass the government ? 
Their proper management was not done . They were also in the 'risk zone' . In the case of Kathmandu, it was done keeping that in mind . After that, the way it was done across the country, was not done by the federal government . The situation is being done by the local level . What we have done here is from a security perspective . We are also in the stage of managing it . The state is also the guardian . Those living on the banks of the river should have been evacuated from the 'risk zone'. That was done. It was necessary to move before the flood.

The government hastily brought an ordinance by postponing the parliament session. Isn't the government trying to govern through the ordinance?
Of course not. You should also look at the ordinance. Look at the ordinance that concerns the ministry I am handling. The ordinance was brought out of urgent need to address the issues of the people.

You also saw the cooperatives, from revolving funds to confiscation of property and the definition of family has been explained. The ordinance has been brought to address the victims of cooperatives. It is not the way it came out, the way the ordinance was publicized. We want the work to be a little easier and faster. After bringing the ordinance, we moved forward in resolving the problems of cooperatives. Because it was stalling.
If we tabled the bill through the normal process, it would take a long time. There would be delays in resolving it. And by then, the problems of cooperatives would also increase. We would have to deal with them again. It is our responsibility to solve the problems of cooperatives, which are our priority, and prevent further risks and problems in cooperatives. That aspect should also be looked at. That is why we have made the Cooperative Authority very strong to prevent that. Similarly, we have tried to form a committee without seeing the commission working effectively in resolving the land problem. The work is progressing accordingly. The government is trying to quickly resolve the obstacles that have arisen in its day-to-day work and the work of the people. That is why the ordinance had to be brought. It should not be viewed in any other way.

You raised the issue of a revolving fund to solve the problems of cooperative victims. There are questions being raised about the state's misappropriation of funds for cooperatives. Such questions are being raised because the president of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is also facing a case related to cooperatives. What do you have to say about this?
The state has released 25 crores as 'side money'. It was a decision made during the previous government to put that amount in the fund. It is an amount allocated in the budget. The release has been made now. It is a 'fund'. The aim is to return the savings of savers. It cannot go to 'full flight' until the loans are recovered. Even though the budget was presented last year, it did not start. Now, an attempt is being made to start. The money from which loans are recovered will be added to the revolving fund. The savings will be returned from the small ones and the loans will be recovered from the big ones. Some borrowers have come in contact after the 15-day notice was issued. They are saying that they will pay the loan. People are coming in contact to pay the loan after the government has indicated that it will be ruthless in taking action.

The previous government had brought a plan and policy program to return savings up to a certain amount to cooperative savers in trouble. How much has it been implemented or not? What is the situation so far?

There are so many problems in cooperatives. That is because the regulatory aspect is weak. We have moved forward to strengthen the regulatory aspect. We are also working to solve the problems of the entire cooperative. Returning someone's savings may solve one level of the problem, but to solve the problems of the cooperative as a whole, regulation must be strict. The unrest within the cooperative must be stopped. Returning the savings of savers is only a solution to one level of the problem. There must be transparency in operations to prevent further problems. There is no data. We are also working on that. Out of the 23 problematic ones, 3 have been resolved. In 20 of them, there is no information or data about the savers. The amount claimed by the savers is different. The computer records are different. The books with the savers are different. It has taken time to verify the name and address. If even that is not maintained, then it is confirmed at what stage of negligence. It is the responsibility of the government to solve the problems faced by the savers. The government is clear about collecting the debts of the borrowers. In some cases, the government has to move forward ruthlessly.

The issue of investment in cooperatives was also coming up that the source was not transparent. Will something be done about this?
While working on the overall issue, work is done on all those where problems are seen. We will move forward accordingly. Verification of the source is needed. Then there will be the issues that have been put on hold. We are working on all these issues.

Let's talk about the Ministry of Federal Affairs and General Administration that you have handled. After you became a minister, the right of employees to raise their demands and bargain collectively has been taken away, right? You abolished the employees' trade union, right?

That is not the case. Of course not. The kind of situation that existed in the employee administration was tried to be improved. The trade union should have talked about the rights of employees. However, a 'next level' situation was created in the name of the union. If the employees did not even go to the places where they were posted under the guise of the union. If they continued to stay in Singha Durbar. If they continued to stay in good places. It was seen that they kept taking 'privileged'. It was seen that they started interfering in the running of the government. Being on government salary, you couldn't do politics. Being an employee, you couldn't do politics. You had to be an employee or engage in politics. You couldn't do both. We are clear on this.

Chief Administrative Officers were vacant in many places. The work of the municipality was affected. Now, almost everywhere is completed. This was not the case before. There was a situation where they refused to go to the assigned place. The mayor would say, "There is no administrative officer, send him." On the other hand, there was a problem of employees not going to the assigned place. What kind of system have we created? How did we operate? You can see some changes now.
If an employee does not go to the assigned place, he should be given a path or be involved in the action. Departmental action is recommended against them. Some employees who did not go to the assigned place have resigned. They did not want to go to the place where they were assigned. They probably thought that they would be happy without going like before, that if they did not go, the transfer decision would be changed and another person would be sent to the place where they were assigned. That will not work anymore.

The draft of the Civil Servants Bill has been made public. There was earlier objection and controversy over this bill from the top leadership of the employees. How will the Civil Servants Bill proceed now?
We prepared and made public the draft of the Civil Servants Bill in 27 days of taking charge of the ministry. Since this is an important bill, more and more suggestions are needed. Since the draft was made public, we have received more than 10,000 suggestions on the bill. We are examining those suggestions. Legitimate suggestions should be included in the bill. The issues left out during the preparation of the bill can be included in the 'feedback' received on the draft. We will fulfill them through them. We are not in favor of insisting that the bill should have the same subject as we said . We are flexible to include legitimate suggestions . The cooling-off period (the period that employees of specific categories have to wait to take up appointments after retirement) remains at two years, there will be no change .

The Federal Civil Service Bill 2074 and 2079 could not be passed by the Parliament . Will the bill be passed by the Parliament or will it remain on hold ?

The Civil Service Bill will be passed in the upcoming Parliament session . How difficult it is to not include this act, how many issues are unclear, how many are contradictory, this law will untie all the knots, pave a way . We will 'fast forward' this bill . The purpose of bringing a draft of the Civil Service Bill within 27 days and collecting suggestions is that it should be tabled as soon as the House opens  and we should move forward . We will work accordingly . 

There is extensive discussion and debate on this bill and it is also necessary . The mentality was to do as we tried to bring a civil service bill in the previous parliaments and to go ahead . The past practice of going ahead with a civil service bill just because we have a majority is not ours . We have made the draft public  to listen to maximum suggestions . We will ‘fast forward’ by holding extensive discussions on the bill and taking suggestions from employees . We are clear on the issue of removing the trade union and the ‘cooling off period’ .

You talked about removing the trade union from the civil service bill . But, why did you remove it from the ordinance earlier ?

An employee trade union was becoming an obstacle to the daily functioning of the government, believe it or not . We sent it to the Chief Administrative Officer but did not take Ramana . However, after removing the trade union, you took Ramana away . You have to understand from there how that 'factor' was being held back. A kind of arbitrariness was going on. No matter how much we tried from above, it was still stuck inside. The way was opened as soon as the trade union was removed.
How much support is the government getting from the employee mechanism?

They are reluctant to go to the places they are posted. There is a tendency not to go to the remote local levels of the country. There is a tendency not to go to Darchula, Achham, Karnali. There is a tendency to stay in the municipalities around Kathmandu. We are not saying that they will go overnight. Even now, that reluctance is there. We will have to change this. These issues will have to be corrected in the Civil Service Bill. If they do not go to these areas, it will have to be added to promotions and performance evaluations. If an employee is sent somewhere, he should take a break for 21 days, there is a provision to extend the term for 7 days. There is a practice of trying to cut a month like this. But in the local government, work stops for that one month due to the absence of the chief. It is important to explain this. Some employees have understood and digested this issue. We do not need to keep saying this every day, we have already gone on the path of solving it through the law.

The employee mechanism has been supporting this government so far. The issue also determines who is sitting in the chair in terms of supporting the political leadership and the bureaucracy. Employees understand the rhythm of the political leadership, employees test the ministers. After that, they move forward. The issue of how the minister presents himself also matters. If the minister himself is clear about how strict the minister is, what his principles are, what kind of mandate he has, there will be no problem. The ministers of this government are clear on these issues. It is moving forward accordingly. The work is being done accordingly. Since it is clear that the political leadership and the staff mechanism cannot work without each other's support, the government is being supported by the staff mechanism.
It is felt that the employees are scared by the government's recent decisions. How do you boost their confidence since you are the Minister of General Administration?

Not all employees are scared. It is natural for those who have done wrong to be scared and they should be scared. They must be involved in the situation of the country that has been in this situation for so many years. They cannot be left out. If the bureaucracy had fulfilled its responsibility, this would not have happened. The employees who have done wrong in the past are scared, they should be scared. But those who have been wronged, who have worked as public servants in a neutral manner, are happy. We are also working and showing results because of the employees who are working.
Is there a possibility that employees who did not get justice in the past will now get an opportunity?

The situation where some people had to stay in Karnali and some did not leave Singha Durbar has ended. If an employee's wife has cancer but he had to stay in Achham, that has ended. Such aspects have been looked into. I am not saying that everything has been cleared up at once, but it has begun. That issue has been looked into and they have realized this. We hear employees responding that our issues are being heard even without reaching the minister's chamber. The employees who were suffering yesterday have begun to end.

You are the top leader of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and are also in charge of the minister. How is the coordination between the party and the RSSS moving forward?
Interaction programs are underway between ministers in the government and party MPs. The government is receiving necessary support from the party. The government is taking support and suggestions from expert leaders in the party. Just because there is coordination between the party and the government due to a single majority government, it does not mean that there is no one to raise questions in Parliament. We have MPs who raise questions about the government's work and ministers in parliamentary committees. Just because there is coordination between the party and the government does not mean that questions will die. MPs are asking their questions in a strict and clear manner. We are moving forward by coordinating in this way.

The government is preparing to reduce the number of ministries and conduct a survey of the organizational structure and staff positions at the union, state and local levels. What is the goal of doing this?
It is to make things a little faster and easier. Earlier, people were hired by adding positions, whether those positions are needed or not is a different matter. Instead of keeping the manpower and structure for a short period of time, they were kept permanently. Some unwanted departments are being merged, while others are being abolished. There is duplication in work and mechanisms. That is why monitoring and evaluation are being carried out. Now in Organization and Management (O&M), we have created a standard in accordance with the same and adopt a scientific method when adding posts. Earlier, it was added according to our own calculations, but now it is ‘O&M’ in a scientific way. ‘O&M’ is being done because the goal is to work in the system.

You have said that the services of the Land Revenue and Survey Office will be provided from the local level. Where did that process go?
We announced that the work of the Land Revenue and Survey Office will be done from the local level. We had asked any municipality that is interested to come. 248 municipalities have contacted us saying that they are interested. We selected 35 municipalities out of them. We have interacted with the heads and administrative officers of those municipalities. After explaining the issue to them, they agreed. We told the land revenue offices of the concerned districts. They will see whether the physical infrastructure and manpower are available at the local level to provide those services, and whether they need to be increased. After monitoring, they will make suggestions about the technical and physical conditions and we will tell them to provide this and that service.

The experience of running the government and having different leaders of the ruling party is not good in Nepali politics. Prime Minister Balendra Shah, who is leading the government this time, has not given any public statements or addresses, and the party leadership has not spoken much either. What is the relationship between Prime Minister Shah and party president Ravi Lamichhane? How are you moving forward?
We are clear on one thing, given the kind of 'mandate' we have, we have no room for losing. We have come to work for the people. In this, our two leaders, who are leading the government and the party, are clear. There is nothing that has come out about their relationship. Their relationship is very cordial. Their meetings are held accordingly. Every decision is made according to their coordination and understanding. That is why there is no need to be afraid of this aspect, this issue.

So, why should we think otherwise regarding the stability of the government?
Under no circumstances. Both are clear. Both have come this far after discussing and signing an agreement that one will run the party and the other will run the government. The thing about not talking is that now we have to show by working. He has already sat in the office to work. Our chairman is talking. He was talking yesterday and yesterday too. It's not that we don't speak . We are probably the first party to come to power and speak clearly . The government is clear on transparency, stability, good governance, and accountability . We are ruthless on some issues . Just as there is zero tolerance in controlling corruption, we will move forward accordingly .