With the aim of bringing Gen-Gs from different groups together, the ‘Nepal Gen-G Front’ has been announced under the coordination of Gen-G leader Raksha Bam. She has been participating in the talks taking place in Baluwatar and Singha Durbar since the midnight of the 24th Bhadra midnight dialogue at the Nepal Army’s military base after the Gen-G movement, and has taken a clear stand in favor of the republic and the constitution.

He said that there is no alternative to elections to resolve the current situation. Gaurav Pokharel spoke to him for Kantipur:

You have announced the ‘Nepal Gen-G Front’. What is its purpose?

To understand the ‘Gen-G Front’, we need to go into the background of the movement. On 23 Bhadra, we took to the streets demanding the lifting of restrictions on social media and good governance. We took to the streets asking where the tax money we paid was, meaning good governance. However, what happened on 23 Bhadra intensified the movement. The situation of 24 Bhadra was created due to the repression by the state party on 23 Bhadra. Then there was destruction.

Some people have the illusion that the government collapsed only after the destructive incident of 24 Bhadra. However, the incidents of arson and destruction took place after 2 pm. But even before that, the then Prime Minister had resigned. The resignation of Prime Minister KP Sharma Oli was demanded on the 24th because people who came to the peaceful protest were killed. It was said that the resignation was needed because the citizens of Takita were shot in the chest and head while in power. The resignation was demanded by questioning that their leadership was incompetent. Therefore, the public should be clear that the change of power was not due to the destruction on the 24th, but due to the massacre on the 23rd.

We, who are at the forefront of the movement, announced the 'Nepal Gen-G Front' to take 'ownership' of the movement. Even though it was called a 'leaderless campaign', we were only a few representatives. There were different groups, different representatives. Everyone had their own agenda, although the 'bottom line' was the same, good governance. Therefore, we announced the 'Nepal Gen-G Front' so that all the friends in that campaign should be together, and the power of the movement should be institutionalized. We also formed this front to integrate the agendas of all the groups that were on the streets during the days of the movement and to reach an agreement with the state.

The names of some of the people seen on the streets yesterday are not in the 'front'. In such a situation, how do you reach an agreement with the state in a way that includes everyone's voice?

We have clearly mentioned the reason for the Gen-G movement in the demands we have made public. We have raised the issue of good governance. Therefore, we have called on all those who agree with the issues we have made public to come together. Some friends have different opinions, there are ideological differences, and when there is an environment where we cannot come to the same place, there is a situation where we can go another way. But if we have the same demand and 'ideology', the 'Nepal Gen-G Front' has been announced so that we can move forward from the same place.

Are you trying to bring Miraj Dhungana, 'Hami Nepal' leader Sudhan Gurung and others who have been demanding that there should be a directly elected executive, together by talking to them?

The purpose of the front announcement is to talk to Miraj Dhungana, Sudhan Gurung or other groups. It has been announced that everyone should come to the same place. In order to institutionalize the movement, we will move forward by talking to various groups. There are issues that need to be agreed with the state, and what to do before that. But different groups also have their own demands. In such a situation, even though there are ideological differences between some individuals and groups, the objective is that everyone is together on the issue of the movement.

UML has proposed to form an all-party government. The current government is a larger and more acceptable government than all-party. Politically, we can go our own way. However, the objective is that everyone is together and has the same opinion on the issue of the movement. That is why we took a month and a half to prepare the document that the front made public. We have been holding the same stance from Maitighar to Jangi Adda, from the President's Office, Sheetal Niwas to the Prime Minister's residence, Baluwatar. And, the document also shows that that stance has not changed so far. That is why we have tried to institutionalize all those parties.

What kind of agreement do you want to make with the government? There is a government formed on your own recommendations. It is also called the Gen-G government. What are you trying to make an agreement with your own government on?

When we say the government of Gen-G, let us not forget that it is also the government of Nepal. It is certainly a government formed on the foundation of good governance, on the foundation of a movement. But it is also the government of Nepal. It is also the government of various political parties. It is also the government of the police. It is everyone's government. An attempt is being made to make an agreement that the next head of government should continue. The question of making an agreement with the state is also a matter of giving legitimacy to the movement. We are preparing a 'draft', called 'Gen-G Movement, 2082'. On this basis, we have tried to make an agreement with the state. There have also been talks about making an agreement with the President. 

Is the purpose of making an agreement only to keep the contents of the movement in the state's 'record' or are there other purposes as well?

We have also tried to keep the Gen-G movement in the state's 'record'. We have also discussed this movement as a purely political movement and have moved forward. In other words, after the agreement, the Gen-G movement will also remain in the state's 'record'.

Another agenda is the 'mandate' of the Gen-G movement, such as opening corruption files, investigating the assets of those who reached high positions after 2046. There are issues such as a fair investigation into the incidents of 23 and 24 Bhadra, action should be taken against those who fired the shots, and action should be taken against those who burned down Singha Durbar. These and other issues may be put forward in a point-by-point manner, but the main thing is that we have tried to reach an agreement to give legitimacy to the movement.

There is a government formed on your own proposal. You have a Prime Minister with a clean and honest image. Isn't it possible to implement some of the agendas of good governance from there? A commission of inquiry has also been formed. Is your additional pressure necessary?

We are clear that we formed this government. Because, at that time, when there was a 'power vacuum', we led and discussed with the army and the President. At that time, there was a different difficult atmosphere on the streets. At that time, we proposed to form a civilian government. Only then was the government formed. The government was formed by our will. We proposed it to former Chief Justice Sushila Karki.

While asking her to lead the interim government, we also gave her a clear 'mandate' of the road - corruption control, good governance, transparency and accountability. We also expressed the expectation that the main pillars of the constitution should be strong. Thus, the government that should hold elections while keeping our 'mandate' in mind must also fulfill its own 'mandate'. However, let's not forget that this is also the government of the entire country. It should not be said that only what Gen-G said should be done. In other words, it seems that there should be no interference in the decision-making process. However, the government should also work in a way that the demands raised by Gen-G are felt.

The agenda on which he said he would compromise, does that mean that he does not trust the government?

The government formed now is not only that of Gen-G. Prime Minister Sushila Karki must address the issues of Nepalis from east to west. It is not just the movement we have launched for ourselves. Every generation has come to the streets on 24 Bhadra. On the first day, people were killed, and on the second day, every generation came to the streets. All citizens have come to the streets to protest the trend of creating unrest, corruption, maintaining misrule, and suppressing the voice of citizens for years.

Therefore, this is everyone's government. As much as we have the right, others also have the right. It is also the government of workers of various parties. They also have the right to call it our government. The government is probably also thinking about what kind of demands it would be good to address for the country during the transitional period. And, the government is moving forward by involving us in talks and discussions. And, it is saying that it will open corruption files. The government is in preparation. There was no talk of opening all the files at once. However, there is an expectation that some message will be given.

It has been a month and a half since the new government was formed. How do you review this period?

We are also warning the government, demanding accountability. We are also giving advice and suggestions that this did not happen, that did not happen. For so many years, the country was trapped in the swamp of corruption. It is not natural for us to expect a solution to this in a day or a month. However, we can say that steps have been taken to institutionalize good governance. Files related to corruption are also being prepared to be opened.

Some actions have also been initiated. This work also requires study, it takes time. For so many years, politicization has been taking place in every sector. However, now very independent people are in the 'cabinet'. There was political interference in every sector from the 'bureaucracy'. The current civilian government should keep all of them moving forward. We have great sympathy for the government. However, we are also in the role of 'watchdog'. Whether it is a civilian government or any other government later, at that time, the work of 'watchdog' should be done. Our understanding is that if something goes wrong, we should point our finger and question it.

There are different opinions among the Gen-Gs on whether or not to arrest the then Prime Minister and Home Minister on charges of suppressing the protest on 23 Bhadra. What is your opinion?

I have not thought about contesting the election or not. I am in the process of discussing it. Our first 'mandate' is to investigate the incident of 23/24 impartially and take action against the guilty. And, we have talked about the rule of law and we are saying that it should be done in a legal manner. If we open the file as soon as we come and act without looking at the process and method, the question will arise whether we are also trying to become KP Oli. That is not the case. We will not repeat their trend after pointing out that you were wrong. An inquiry commission has been formed. According to its report, it is a demand that action should be taken against the person they said.

There has also been talk of arresting right now. I think that is natural. Because some have lost their children, loved ones, and there can be no greater pain for anyone. That is why it is not wrong for them to demand or say that the guilty should be punished.

It is their absolute legal right to file a complaint or a statement in that regard. The Commission has also said that there is no need to wait for its report in cases where criminal charges are filed. The Commission calls the concerned for a statement in its own way, but if a complaint has been filed with the police, action will be taken accordingly. The ‘Arrest K.P.O.L.’ campaign was launched recently. At that time, the martyr’s family tried to file a complaint. That is also the victim’s right. There is no question of stopping it. 

You said that you would move forward after looking into the Commission’s investigation. However, you had also expressed your involvement in the ‘Arrest K.P.O.L.’ campaign. Isn’t that inconsistent?

I did not write that they should be arrested right now. I tried to send a message that everyone is together in the issue of taking action against the culprits of that day. As an agitator, I have said and written every time that KP Oli should be arrested. We are all together in the issue of taking action against Oli, Ramesh Lekhak or the culprits of that day, I supported the campaign because there is no difference in the generation on that agenda.

I did not say that they should be arrested right now. सरकारलाई तपाईंहरूको ‘म्यान्डेट’ यो पनि हो है भनेर झक्झक्याउन चाहिँ खोजेका हौं । तपाईंहरू यो कुरा नबिर्सिनुस् है भन्न खोजेका हौं । कसैले त्यो दिनको कुरालाई बिर्सिनु हुँदैन, आयोगले पनि खुट्टा नकमाओस् भनेर चेतावनीसहित खबरदारी गर्न त्यो अभियान चलाइएको थियो ।

अब निर्वाचनको कुरा गरौं । बालुवाटारमा सरकार तथा जेन–जी र दलहरूको त्रिपक्षीय वार्ता पनि भयो । दलहरूलाई के सन्देश दिनुभयो ?

वार्तामा बस्दा अधिकांश दलका नेताज्यूहरू चुनावकेन्द्रित नै हुनु भएको पायौं । एमालेका तर्फबाट चाहिँ संसद् पुनःस्थापनाका कुराहरू पनि आए । त्यसमा चाहिँ स्पष्ट सन्देश दिएका छौं, अबको बाटो त्यो होइन । त्यो कुरा एमाले प्रतिनिधि आउँदा मलाई प्रश्न गर्न मन लाग्यो, ‘तपाईंहरू कुन नैतिक आधारमा त्यो कुरा गर्दै हुनुहुन्छ ? जबकि तपाईंकै पार्टी सरकारमा हुँदा पटकपटक संसद् विघटन भएका थिए ।’ यो कुरा हामीले बैठकमा पनि राख्यौं । आफ्नो कुर्सी बचाउनका निम्ति हुने संसद् विघटनचाहिँ संवैधानिक हुने, अनि जनताको ‘म्यान्डेट’ पाएको सत्ता चाहिँ असंवैधानिक हुने भन्ने हुन्छ ? उहाँहरूले सर्वपक्षीय सरकार बनाउने प्रस्ताव पनि गर्नुभएछ । त्यो सर्वपक्षीय भनेको के हो ? अहिलेको सरकार त सर्वपक्षीयभन्दा ठूलो सर्वमान्य सरकार हो ।

सर्वमान्य प्रधानमन्त्रीको सर्वमान्य ‘क्याबिनेट’ छ । त्यस्तोमा अरू प्रश्न गर्नुपर्ने कुरा छ जस्तो लाग्दैन । चुनावी वातावरण छैन, चुनावी माहोल छैन, भयावह स्थिति छ भनेर चुनाव नगर्ने बाटोतिर नजाऔं भनेर सबैलाई आग्रह गरेका छौं । सुरक्षाका नाममा चुनाव टार्ने कुरा नगर्नुस् भनेका छौं । त्यो टार्ने हो भने १० वर्ष जनयुद्ध भएर चुनाव हुनुअघिको परिस्थिति के थियो सम्झनुस् भनेका छौं । भर्खरै शान्ति सम्झौता भएका बेला कति हतियार बाहिर थिए ? कति घटनाहरू भइरहेका थिए, चुनाव हुँदै गर्दा बुथबाहिर ‘एम्बुस’हरू पड्किरहेका थिए ।

प्रहरी र सेनाको अहिलेभन्दा बढी मनोबल खस्किएको थियो । त्यो बेला त चुनाव भयो भने अहिले त त्यस्तो स्थिति छैन । त्यसैले सबै चुनावका लागि तयार हुनुपर्छ भनेका छौं । र, एमालेबाहेक अरू सबै दलले चुनावमा तयार छौं भनेर स्पष्ट सन्देश पनि दिएका छन् । र, अहिलेको अवस्थालाई लोकतान्त्रिक निकास दिने बाटो चुनाव नै हो । यो कुरा दलहरूले पनि राम्रोसँग बुझेका छन् । त्यसैकारण चुनावमै केन्द्रित हुँदा सबैलाई राम्रो हो भन्ने लाग्छ । सुरक्षाका विषयहरूमा अझ बढी आश्वस्त तुल्याउने गरी सरकारले काम गर्छ । तर, त्यसलाई बहाना बनाएर पछि हट्ने काम नगरौं भनेका छौं । 

दलहरूले अझै त्रासको स्थिति छ भनेका छन् । उनीहरूलाई चुनावको तयारीमा लाग्न तपाईंहरूले अनौपचारिक रूपमा पनि संवाद गरिरहनुभएको छ ?

दलका केही नेताहरूसँग व्यक्तिगत रूपमा भेट भएर केही कुरा भएका छन् । ‘एक्सेस’ भएकाहरूसँग पनि कुरा भएको हो । तर, औपचारिक रूपमा चाहिँ बालुवाटारमै त्रिपक्षीय संवाद भएको हो ।

चुनावको वातावरण बनाउन सरकारलाई चाहिँ के सुझाव दिनुहुन्छ ?

सुरक्षा संयन्त्रको मनोबल बढाउनुपर्ने चुनौती छन् । बाहिर भएका हतियारलाई नियन्त्रणमा ल्याउन सरकारले काम गरिरहेको छ । फरार कैदीबन्दीलाई पनि भित्र ल्याउने कुरामा सशक्त रूपमा अघि बढ्नुपर्छ । दलहरूसँग निरन्तर संवाद गरिरहनसमेत सुझाव दिएका छौं । काम भइरहेको छ । समाजका अरू सरोकारवालाहरूसँग पनि सरकारले संवाद गरिरहेको छ, औपचारिक/अनौपचारिक कुराकानी गरिरहनुपर्छ । 

तपाईंले 'नेपाल जेन–जी फ्रन्ट’ घोषणा गरेको चाहिँ चुनावमा उठ्ने तयारी स्वरूप पनि हो ?

चुनावमा कुन रूपमा जाने भन्ने विषयमा हाम्रो छलफल भइरहेकै छ । चुनावको कुरामा भावनात्मक रूपले मात्र सोचेर हुँदैन, त्यो प्राविधिक कुरा पनि हो । त्यही भएर कसरी अघि बढ्न ठीक हुन्छ भनेर छलफल गरिरहेका छौं । फ्रन्टको काम सरकारलाई सहयोग गर्ने पनि हो । यसबाट हामीले मतदाता अधिकारदेखि राजनीतिक सचेतनाका काम गर्न खोजेका छौं ।

व्यक्तिगत रूपमा मेरो अहिलेसम्म टुंगो लागेको छैन । जेन–जीबाट पनि चुनावमा आउनु त पर्छ, म साथीहरूलाई आह्वान पनि गर्छु । युवाहरू राजनीतिमा होमिनुपर्छ । मेरो र हाम्रो हकमा जेन–जी साथीहरूले नेतृत्वका लागि तयार छौं भनेर स्पष्ट सन्देश दिएका छन् । अरू कुरा छलफल भइरहेका छन् ।

मिराज ढुंगानाले आफ्नो एजेन्डा राखेर यही अवस्थामा चुनाव नलड्ने भन्नुभएको छ । तपाईंले भने संविधानलाई मान्ने भनेर स्पष्टसँग भन्दै आउनुभएको छ । यस्तोमा तपाईंचाहिँ चुनाव लड्ने त निश्चित नै होला नि ?

चुनाव लड्ने वा नलड्नेबारे सोचिसकेको अवस्था छैन । म छलफलमै छु । हामी भर्खरै ‘ट्वान्टिज’ मा छौं, जीवनको ‘करिअर’का लागि पनि धेरै कुरा गर्नुछ । राजनीतिलाई पेसा बनाउनु हुँदैन भन्नेमा स्पष्ट छौं । त्यसैले पैसा कमाउने गरी आफ्नो क्षेत्रको काम पनि गर्नुपर्नेछ । हामी पुराना नेता जसरी राजनीतिलाई पेसा बनाउँदैनौं, त्यसैले यसमा छलफल भइरहेको छ । 

'नेपाल जेन–जी फ्रन्ट’ राजनीतिक दलमा परिवर्तन हुने सम्भावना पनि छ ?

सम्भावना त हरेक कुराको हुने भयो । तर, अहिले नै राजनीतिक दलमा परिणत हुन्छ भनेर भन्न सक्दिनँ । स्थापित दलहरूको जुन किमिसको दलदल छ, त्यसबाट निस्किनका लागि एउटा वैकल्पिक धार आउनुपर्छ भन्ने मलाई लाग्छ । तर, आफू स्वयं चुनावमा आउने कि कसैलाई ‘सपोर्ट’ गर्ने भन्ने कुरा पनि होला ।

चुनावमा जाने अवस्थामा चाहिँ तपाईंको रोजाइ पुरानै दल हो कि, रास्वपा हो कि, हालै गठन भएको पार्टी हो कि, नयाँ गठन हुने तयारीमा रहेका दल ?

पुराना पार्टीहरूभन्दा पनि रास्वपालाई हामी नयाँ नै भन्छौं । वैकल्पिक धारबाट उदाएको पार्टी हो । यद्यपि, हाम्रो रोजाइ त अझै नयाँ आउने दल पनि हो । तर, रास्वपाले एउटा वैकल्पिक शक्तिको ‘ग्रेटर एलायन्स’ बनाउँछ भने त्यो पनि एउटा सम्भावना हुन सक्ने भयो । ती सबै छलफल भइरहेका विषय हुन् । ती छलफल अब फ्रन्टले गर्छ । यसले समाजका सबै सरोकारवालासँग पनि संवाद गर्छ ।

विगतमा वैकल्पिक शक्तिहरू फरकफरक रूपमा चुनावमा लड्दा पुरानै शक्तिलाई फाइदा पुगेको उदाहरण पनि छ । त्यस्तो हुन नदिन अहिले देखिएका वैकल्पिक शक्तिहरू, जेन–जीहरू एकठाउँमा उभिने सम्भावना कत्तिको छ ?

म राजनीतिक रूपमा अघि बढ्ने र चुनावमा सहभागी हुने कुरालाई दुई फरक दृष्टिकोणबाट हेर्छु । राजनीतिक रूपमा जाँदा एजेन्डाअनुसार फरकफरक हिसाबमा अघि बढ्न सकिन्छ । तर, चुनावमा जाँदा समान मत भएका पक्षहरू मिलेर पुराना शक्तिलाई चुनौती दिने गरी अघि बढ्न सकिन्छ ।

आन्दोलन गरेर मात्र होइन, ‘वि क्यान लिड नाउ’, ‘लेट अस लिड नाउ’ भनेर चुनौती दिने वातावरण सिर्जना गराउनका निम्ति चाहिँ एउटा ठूलो बृहत् ‘अलायन्स’ बन्छ, त्यसमा समाजका हरेक ‘स्टेकहोल्डर’का प्रतिनिधि हुन्छन् भने त्यसमा सामेल हुन र समर्थन गरेर अघि बढ्न केही समस्या हुँदैन । तर, त्यसपछिको राजनीतिक यात्रा के हुन्छ भन्ने कुराचाहिँ फरक हुन सक्छ । त्यसबेलाको कुराहरू तय गर्न समय पनि लाग्छ । प्राविधिक रूपमा चाहिँ बृहत् ‘एलायन्स’का लागि हामी खुला नै छौं । व्यक्तिगत रूपमा आफैं चुनावमा नआए पनि समर्थन गर्न खुला छौं ।

पहिलो संविधानसभालाई २०६२/६३ पछि सत्तामा आएका दलहरूले अग्रिम 'म्यान्डेट’ दिएका थिए । संविधानसभा त्यसैअनुसार अघि बढ्यो । जेन–जी आन्दोलनपछिको निर्वाचनबाट बन्ने संसद् र सरकारलाई केही 'म्यान्डेट’ दिइनुपर्छ कि पर्दैन ?

त्यसैका लागि हामीले विभिन्न राजनीतिक दलहरूलाई राखेर एउटा ‘म्यान्डेट’ बुझाउन आवश्यक छ । जस्तो भ्रष्टाचार यति धेरै छ, फाइल खोल्दाखोल्दै ६ महिना बित्छ । त्यसपछिको सरकारले यसको निरन्तरता दिनुपर्नेछ । त्यो कुरा बुझाउनुपर्नेछ । अब आउने संसद्ले कतिपय छानबिनका विषयहरूलाई सम्बोधन गर्ने परिस्थिति बन्नुपर्छ । 

शासकीय स्वरूप, संघीयताको कुरा पनि छन्, सर्वदलीय बैठकमा मिराज ढुंगानाले प्रत्यक्ष निर्वाचित कार्यकारीको कुरा पनि उठाउनुभयो, तपाईंको विचारचाहिँ के हो ?

त्यो वार्तामा हामी १४ जना थियौं, तर एक जनाले मात्र त्यो विषय राख्नुभएको हो । लोकतन्त्रमा बहुमतको कदर गरिनुपर्छ, हामी एक जनाको कुरालाई पनि कदर गर्छौं । भोलि दुई तिहाइबाट त्यो एजेन्डा सम्बोधन हुन्छ, उहाँले टेबल ठटाएरै त्यो एजेन्डालाई पारित गर्नुहुन्छ भने त्यसलाई पनि लोकतान्त्रिक अभ्यास नै मान्छौं । त्यतिबेला आम जनताले मागेको हो भन्नुपर्छ । तर, अहिलेको सरकारसँग त्यो ‘म्यान्डेट’ छैन । शासकीय स्वरूप फेर्नका लागि यो आन्दोलन भएको पनि थिएन । जतिले जे भने पनि भ्रष्टाचारविरुद्ध र सामाजिक सञ्जालमा प्रतिबन्धविरुद्ध बोल्न मानिस सडकमा आएका थिए । त्यो भीडमा शासकीय स्वरूपको कुरा टाढाटाढासम्म पनि चर्चा भएको थिएन । 

चुनाव पछाडिको मुलुक कस्तो होस् भन्ने तपाईं र 'फ्रन्ट’को कल्पना छ ? 

विगतको जस्तो पात्र मात्र फेरिने खालको माहोल हामीले कल्पना गरिरहेका छैनौं । हाम्रो ‘म्यान्डेट’ सुशासन हो, त्यो कायम गर्ने सरकार आउँछ भन्ने हाम्रो बुझाइ हो । इतिहासमा जति पनि आन्दोलन भए, ती व्यवस्था परिवर्तनका लागि भए । हाम्रो आन्दोलनचाहिँ अब अवस्था परिवर्तनका लागि गरिएको हो ।

संविधानमा भएका महत्त्वपूर्ण स्तम्भहरूलाई बलियो पार्नलाई गरिएको आन्दोलन हो । संविधानमा त लेखिएको छ, समावेशिता, जवाफदेहिता, पारदर्शिता, जनतामा निहित सार्वभौमसत्ता, नागरिक स्वतन्त्रता । यति राम्रो संविधान छ, त्यसलाई कार्यान्वयन गराउने हो । तर, संविधानमा यीबाहेक केही विषय संशोधन गरिनुपर्ने होलान् । १० वर्षमा कतिपय कुरामा फेरि पुनरावलोकन गर्नुपर्छ भन्ने मान्यता छ । यस्ता कुराहरूमा छलफल गर्न सकिन्छ ।