A graduate of International Politics from Jawaharlal Nehru University, Jayashree Vivekanandan teaches at South Asian University. Her research interests include international relations, Indian strategic thought and practice, transnational resource cooperation in South Asia, and colonial theory.

When she came to Kathmandu recently, she focused on issues such as international relations, climate change, common concerns and problems. A conversation with Jayashree Vivekanandan Janakraj Sapkota and Upendraraj Pandey from Kantipur : You have been teaching international relations at South Asian University for almost a decade. The number of Nepali students in the university is also significant. What are the experiences of teaching students from Nepali and South Asian countries?

Students from various South Asian countries study in our university. In this sense, I consider myself very lucky with cultural diversity. I joined the department in 2011. Since then, there have been a large number of Nepalese students in the department. I don't see it being that difficult for them to get into the educational system.

Nepali and Bangladeshi students are very hardworking. As they come from different language learning systems like Nepali, Bengali, Sinhalese etc. I also got the chance to learn from them. Although we teach in English, we have been teaching in a simplified manner, keeping in mind the students from different linguistic backgrounds. Recently, the number of Nepali students is decreasing. 

In 2019, 'No Mountain Too High? Your research titled 'Assessing the Trans-Territoriality of the Kailash Sacred Landscape Conservation Initiative' has been published. How can transnational projects between Nepal, China and India define the capacity of states?

The Kailash Sacred Land Conservation and Development Initiative (KSLCDI) involves three countries, Nepal, China and India. Environment ministries of all three countries are involved in this. Other partner organizations are also participating in it. For example, Tribhuvan University Central Department of Botany from Nepal, GB Pant Institute from India are involved. Despite the geopolitical situation in South Asia, it is very important for the three countries to stand together for the protection of the Kailash area.

ISIMOD acts as the nodal agency coordinating between the three countries. In the 2011 ISMOD report, it is mentioned that the boundary of Kailash region will be decided by three countries. It also includes respecting the laws of each country. It is also very close to the geographical integrity as stipulated in the SAARC Charter. International border is not a problem in Kailash region. But there are challenges in implementing the laws of the three countries. The national law on the protection of national parks is being implemented, but it seems that the ministries also need to coordinate for the implementation of the law.

Has any structural mechanism been established for the protection of Kailash area?

Many such bilateral and multilateral initiatives have been started in South Asia, but there seems to be a lack of regulatory mechanisms. There is no autonomous mechanism to initiate resolution when disputes arise. We do not have strong mechanisms for dispute resolution not only in the environment, but also in the fields of tourism, trade, connectivity etc. It seems that countries should emphasize cooperation. SAARC's role is therefore important. SAARC can play a key role in solving common problems in the region. 

Himalayas and environmental protection said that international cooperation is necessary. What are the challenges and how can regional cooperation be made effective?

There is a big problem of how to connect the regional issue to the local level, in South Asia. These are what we know as Transboundary Protected Areas (TBPAs), eg Sundarbans, Kailash region. Transboundary protected areas are very popular around the world. According to the data of 2007, there are 227 transboundary protected areas in the world. They have received in-principle support from global agencies like United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), World Bank, IUCN for legitimacy.

In some places, such protected areas have been successful, in many places, success has also been achieved due to the participation of people from the ground level. In South Asia, it is very difficult to achieve success in the field of environmental protection if there is no active participation at the local level. In some cases, it seems that initiatives should be taken at the state level to solve the problem. For example Arunachal and Assam states are affected by Brahmaputra floods. Therefore, there is a need for cooperation at different levels for environmental protection. 

Some very positive and effective steps have also been taken. Brahmaputra Dialogue is one of them. It has the participation of various parties from state and non-state level. It is a neutral platform set up for discussion and cooperation between countries bounded by the Brahmaputra River. IIT Guwahati has also participated in its research. It is also a great way to generate knowledge about resources. Participation of research institutions, community-based organizations is important in this. 

Both India and China have seen great potential in Brahmaputra in hydropower production. Although both of them have accelerated the production of hydroelectric power, there seems to be some disagreement between them. How do you see it here?

We cannot change geography. There are mainly 'Upper Riparian' and 'Lower Riparian' states. A 'lower riparian' state may be an 'upper riparian' state for another country. The Brahmaputra has 4 'riparian' states, China, India, Bhutan and Bangladesh. Every country depends on this river basin. A large population depends on its water. India is concerned that if China builds hydropower plants, it will affect the low-lying coastal areas. China is calling it a run-of-the-river hydroelectric power house.

India has expressed concern that when China consumes water for hydropower in the upper reaches, the amount of water in the lower reaches decreases. In 2006, an expert-level mechanism was formed between the two countries. It is said that the meeting of the mechanism will be held annually to discuss the flood situation. An MoU was also signed in 2002. There are also challenges as the MoU is not legally binding. It is not a treaty and is consequently influenced by political tensions. The same thing happened in Doklam in 2017. It also affected the management of information exchange. 

We should pay attention not only to the quantity of water but also to the quality of water. Water disputes cannot be resolved without dialogue and cooperation. This cannot be solved unilaterally or by one country alone. A treaty is not a solution in itself, mediation, negotiation and bilateral or multilateral forums can be effective steps to resolve the problem. 

Nepal and India have close ecological and cultural ties. How will the Indian steps to protect natural resources such as water, mountains and rivers have an impact on Nepal-India relations and the livelihood of Nepali citizens?

There is very little exchange of information or dialogue. When China built a dam on the Brahmaputra. Jangmu Dam is located at a distance of 200 km from the Indian border. 20 percent of the world's people depend on the Ganges, Brahmaputra, Indus, and Meghna rivers alone. Rivers and forests are major resources for Himalayan countries and communities. The extent to which such issues are covered at the policy level depends on whether natural resources are conserved. In the presence of civil society and stakeholders from Nepal, India and China, environmental protection is discussed in regional meetings from time to time. 

In 2013, a joint team from Nepal and India tried to clean up the garbage in the Himalayan region. The team collected about 4 and a half tons of garbage from Kailash area. While tourism or pilgrimage is the main source of income for Nepal, oxygen cylinders, tents and bodies of people who died during the journey could not be picked up in the Himalayan region. Realizing that the tourism sector is very important, Nepal and India jointly took steps.

Mount Kailash is mainly a center of tourist attractions in which Nepal, India and China are naturally interested and concerned. Nepal is not directly involved in Brahmaputra. Countries can benefit from bilateral or multilateral cooperation. It also requires inter-ministerial cooperation of all countries. If there is cooperation and understanding between the Ministries of Energy, Forests and Environment, citizens can benefit from this along with conservation of natural resources.

Can it be said that climate change is also the cause of geopolitical tension in this region?

It is difficult to directly establish that climate change is also the cause of geopolitical conflicts. But some experts say that in the 21st century there will be a 'water war'. There are also experts who believe that when natural resources become scarce and countries begin to emphasize cooperation. Whether the common challenge will lead countries to greater cooperation or whether it will create tension is still debated.

Climate change or physical infrastructure construction is also being discussed as a factor of stress. Climate change and natural resource issues are also linked with disputes between countries that are already under geopolitical tension. But I don't think climate change is the only cause of stress.

This year you wrote an article titled 'Where we need water, we get guns' based on the defense of sovereignty claims over the Brahmaputra River. Elaborate on the structural and institutional mechanisms for safeguarding sovereignty and its impact on regional cooperation.

Security is a matter of existential crisis. Only then can the extraordinary step be justified. But what is the threat of existence? Lack of water, disruption of access to water can also be an existential crisis. India's northeastern states have also grappled with such effects.

In this only dialogue can solve such problems. Securitization refers to unilateral activities. Each country is doing what it wants to do. It will work in the short term but in the long run, as all countries are dependent on natural resources, channels and mechanisms are needed for mediation and dialogue. 

How do you think South Asian countries can collectively address these challenges?

I think SAARC cannot be ignored in this. SAARC is also mandatory because geography has a special meaning. It does not mean that the United Nations is coming. Because recently the whole world is getting connected to regional relations. If you want to connect globally you need to connect regionally first. With or without regional connectivity, your neighboring countries can serve as gateways to the rest of the world or for expanding ties. Without regional cooperation and integration, it is difficult to connect with the world economically or strategically. SAARC is very important. Sub-regional organizations like BBIN can remain as complementary organizations to SAARC. BBIN and BIMSTEC have some attraction.

It is natural for countries that are economically, culturally, historically and geographically connected to find a cluster. SAARC can also benefit from such sub-regional forums. We should also learn something from history. This society was integrated several years before the signing of the MoU or the establishment of SAARC. The

business community, institutions such as the South Asian University, have also promoted South Asian consciousness. Why can't we think regionally? Why can't we move forward as South Asians? The EU is developing a European identity. They have gone beyond German, French and advanced as a European identity. Being European does not mean not being German or French. So why can't we be South Asian and Nepali or South Asian and Indian at the same time? 

Koshi River floods affect both Nepal and India. Similarly, the impact of pollution caused by the burning of straw in various states of India in Delhi and other areas is also seen in Nepal. What kind of cooperation do you see needed between the two countries to reduce these problems or exchange information?

Professor Nimmi Kurien has researched how border communities can address these issues. He has mentioned how communities living on the India-Bangladesh border exchange information by forming WhatsApp groups. Community radio stations can also be beneficial. Sometimes the solution should be found at the level where the problem is found. If the

problem is at the local level, the solution should also be found at the local level. It does not always have to be at the national and regional level. Social networks can also be very effective because social networks are borderless. When floods occur in Nepal, the bordering Indian states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh help. Similarly, Sri Lanka is supported by the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. When there is a problem in the Sundarbans of Bangladesh, West Bengal is ready to help. 

Are there any other notable examples of cross-border collaboration? 

The 'Alpine Conference', an international agreement established to ensure cooperation for environmental protection and regional development among the 8 countries of the Alps mountain region, can be taken as an example. It is a diplomatic international conference. Another forum active for the protection of the Alps is the Alliance in the Alps. It involves more than 300 local authorities from France to Slovenia. It has been successful because it has been carried forward with emphasis on local participation in this forum.  Another example of

is the Kalahari Transfrontier Park. The park is run in collaboration with rangers from Botswana and South Africa. They are cooperating informally. Three-quarters of the park is in Botswana and one-quarter in South Africa. Local citizens are cooperating. Here the Rangers cooperated without a treaty. Although it has been going informally for a long time, only in 2000, the two countries formalized it. 

could be another example, Mapuchi land. The traditional lands of the Mapuchi community were divided between Chile and Argentina. With the activation of Mapuchi organizations, both countries are currently practicing participatory government. If they are to participate in policy making while protecting the land of the local people, significant achievements can be achieved in environmental protection.